serai | Oh dear

Oh man. I'm Spanish, and my folks are old-world, and you'd be mightily amused by some of the stories I could tell you about familial affection, hugs-and-kisses, and the hilarious situations that can result. You'd laugh heartily, whereas I'm sure the kind of pissy busybodies we're discussing would have an apoplectic fit.

not only narrow-minded and reprehensible, but abominably rude as well.

LOL. Ah, but we're talking about 'Murrikins here. This is the BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, with the HIGHEST MORALS and BEST VALUES, so we have the right to tell anybody else anywhere what to do, anytime. Courtesy is just some faggy Eurotrash invention, we don't need none o' that shit! We gonna say what we want and do what we want, and anybody who cain't take it ain't got no balls, yahoo!

We didn't get our reputation as the rudest, pushiest nation in the world by accident, y'know. But you know I'm in agreement with you on the rudeness thing. It just kills me how sickeningly rude and self-worshipping we can be.

I know it's modern scripture to believe that one's own problems are more important than anything or anyone else, and thus the whole world should Hear About It When We're Offended, and thus I'm marking myself as a hopeless old fogey when I say people should mind their own business and keep their shit to themselves. I've got skeletons and troubles and past sorrows aplenty, but you don't see me vomiting them out all over everybody at the slightest provocation. The worship of the individual has turned this culture into a huge sandbox, filled with toddlers who whine and cry and demand everyone's attention no matter what the cause.

I must say, however, that I believe that the root cause of the original comments was an active dislike to the prevalence of slash within the LOTR fan community.

And I agree with you here wholeheartedly. This is something I just don't get. What the hell business is it of theirs? They don't like slash? Fine. Who in the hell is forcing them to look at it? And for fuck's sake, she labelled the drawing and put in a cut. How can it possibly be her resposibility that some slash-hating dickwad decided to look anyway?

Jesus, this fandom so deserves a massive bitch-slapping. This kind of shit is just not on at all.

For someone to find their way to a site belonging to someone of a different culture, and imply evil where clearly none was intended, is not only narrow-minded and reprehensible, but abominably rude as well.

It does tend to come back to just down right bad manners doesn't it? Very well said!

I think just about everything that's objectionable about American cultures and "values" can ultimately come down to plain bad manners, myself.

Thanks, Glory. Hopefully Rei will heal soon and see how much her work is loved and admired--and that the thoughts of a few rude individuals are of little consequence.

*sigh* It's my belief that one's LJ is one's own space, within which to do exactly as one chooses, and so I've never really understood why more people don't just delete the kind of meanness that we see going on over there. Why even put up with it to begin with?

For a while, I ran a fan message board, where I posted strict rules about behavior and courtesy, and I never batted an eye at deleting that kind of thing. Just because someone feels like getting drunk and throwing glasses doesn't mean the host has no right to throw him out. (In fact, it's exactly when that happens that the host's right to police his own party comes into play.) It puzzles me.

Of course, Rei is Japanese, and their ideas and style of courtesy are different than ours. More involved, I take it, and women especially seem to live with tighter rules about politeness. But then again, I'm not from there, so there are probably ramifications I don't know about. But it would not surprise me if she just felt it would be bad form to delete comments. I understand why people think that way...I just don't understand why they think that way! *laugh*

I guess I find it funny that in a culture like LJ, we've evolved this system whereby the I Have A Right To Talk ethos is combined with the Openness Is Always Good idea; add in Deleting Is Stifling Free Speech concept, and you end up with people being held hostage in their own journals. Which, I'm sorry, is wildly silly. Name me one person who'd put up with that in real life - some asshole walking into your house and bullying you into changing something about your life just because he didn't like it. I can't think of a single person I know who'd even let him in the front door, and certainly no one who wouldn't throw him out!

My view is, a community of any kind cannot run smoothly and be a good place to be if rules of courtesy are not enforced. Each person owns her own space here, and while argument is fine, there's a line between that and bullying (and it ain't really all that fine a line, either).

I think about the good stuff I've had from this fandom, and then I think about what it might have been like if people 1) minded their own business, 2) paused and thought before deciding to be offended at soemthing, and 3) simply ignored what they didn't like or didn't agree with. Just think about it. It might still be, if not as large, at least as vibrant as it was three years ago. But the pissing and the warring and the pruding and the hounding have hacked away at it, and most of the best artists have left, and argh.

And yeah, it's fandom, I know. If it were about some TV show or actor/musician/dick model I would neither be surprised nor care much. But this is playground attached to an awesome piece of literature, an entire world that has nothing to do with this silliness, and I guess I'm fundamentally disappointed that some people can be the same old asshats in the face of such riches. Isn't there anything that will drive the monkey out of us?

*giggle* Yeah, it was a typo, though apt!

*sigh* I get so sad when I hear people talk about how they had to have the Talk About Nakedness with their kid. How they have to tell their adorable three or four-year-old, "Sorry, sweetie, but you can't run around bare any more." Sorry, darlin', you have to start being afraid of people now. Sorry, love, you have to start hiding from people now. It's just ugly beyond belief that this kind of thing is the norm in our culture, and I honestly think that kind of indoctrination borders on child abuse. Deliberate twisting of a kid's psyche like that is just as damaging as whatever harm adults may fear, and it works on the entire population, rather than just some, so it's worse for humanity as a whole, eventually.

That is a damn cute story about the little girl. Little wee naked people are so damn cute - all that energy and innocence is so inspiring. Back in my Santa Cruz days, I used to hang out with a pagan couple and their kids. They were old-fashioned Northern California pagans, and we did a lot of hanaing around naked in that forest house. The kids, two boys, were typical little dudes, running around with that little dude energy, and I often found myself forgetting that nobody had any clothes on. It was quite simply irrelevant. And I often wonder just why people choose to believe such strange and unpleasant things about sex, and bodies, and life.

Oh, and if you feel so inclined, PLEASE write the fic. I'm actually considering something myself, but it would probably end up all angsty and tragic, and given the tenor of the situation, that would kinda miss the point. *giggle*

*seconds the nomination*

But which party will she run under?

Yes, I think it was the condescension that really got to me, the ever-so-kindly implication that, my dear, you may not have realized it, being a benighted foreigner and all, but you just posted what any reasonable person could clearly see was pornographic filth. But of course we Americans with our lofty morals have no problem in pointing out the error of your ways to you. Pah.

Not familiar with Murrikins, fortunately, but then I do stay far away from SOA and any other group that I feel is judgmental.

and any that favors elves, but that's just me ;)

It does tend to come back to just down right bad manners doesn't it?

Doesn't it, though? And I have found that the older I get, the less tolerant of rudeness I am, and is probably why this incensed me so.

It's not as though Mucun had been in the habit of posting nothing but fluffy F&S pics and then had sprung a hardcore F/S on her friends. In that case, her friends might have had just cause to ask her for a bit of a warning, although she still would have had every right to post it on her own site.

But apparently this was a friend of a friend who seems to think that she and her friends have the right to enforce their views upon the internet at large. That, I submit, is utterly uncalled for, and they'd do better to stay at their own sites and not be judging the world at large.

And to hurt such a sweet person in the process with out any justification whatsoever except their own twisted misperceptions? That's what really got my hackles up. I get pretty annoyed when people are rude to me, but if they are rude to someone who's genuinely sweet and kind, I just boil!

Teehee! "'Murrikins" are Americans, with that self-righteous trailer-trash accent.

By the way, I just friended you. :)

Hee! - and here I thought it was some impossibly twee nickname. :D

*snort* Or some deviant/weird fandom thing. A fetish for...what? Fold-out beds? Virgin mothers? The mind boggles at the possibilities.

Well, not every artist wants to rate their stuff. I certainly hate doing so, and fought it for a while when I first started writing fic. And once again, this is an example of requiring that others do things to conform to one's own standards. They don't use our movie rating system on fandom sites in Japan, so why would they do so on their LJ's? Not everybody goes by those customs, nor should they be expected to change their ways for the comfort of a few who feel the possibility of seeing something icky (and this was not even slightly icky) will be more than they can handle.

mucun said clearly that the picture was of a kiss. She also cut the pic. Anyone who's been around LJ for a while, let alone the hobbit fandom, would know those for indicators that they might see something they don't want to see if they clicked on the link. So unfortunately, the high ground on this argument was lost the moment that link was clicked. Anyone who would object could have avoided doing so. They didn't - their problem. Not anyone else's, and certainly not Rei's.

She's a generous lady with enormous talent, and she has a perfect right to display her pics as she sees fit. She has the courtesy to use cuts when something might make others uncomfortable. That is all anyone has a right to ask. There are plenty of other artists that rate their stuff.

Common sense meaning what you define as common sense, I take it? Seems to me "common sense" changes depending on one's history, as you've just outlined in your comment. Of course there's danger in the world, but what does it profit anyone to be raised in fear of others just because something might happen? I don't see that as a viable way to raise a generation, making them paranoid and suspicious of people around them.

Ratings are very nice for those that want them. What seems to be getting past you is the fact that not everyone wants them. As I said before, I don't like them. If you're dead set on having that kind of information beforehand, then keep to the journals that have ratings. It's presumptuous to assume that every artist must arrange and present her stuff to your approval. If you went to a gallery opening and complained to the artist about the way the pictures were presented, what do you think the painter would say? Probably something along the lines of "The door's over there," I'd imagine.

If you don't like my conclusions about this issue, fine. Please feel free to think what you like about me. However, since this is my LJ (as I've pointed out in this discussion), I will keep my opinions about this matter, thanks.

mucun did not in any way deserve any of that, artists have the right to do as they please with their work (and Rei is more than polite about the way she posts hers), and people should learn to have a sense of proportion about the "harm" that art can cause.

But seeing as how that's a debate that's been going on since the time of the Greeks, I don't expect any solutions any time soon. Seems to me the most adult thing to do is simply to avoid those things one does not approve of, and not get all upset when confronted with unexpected things. A picture of a kiss is not the same as a hand up a child's skirt, and it would behoove an awful lot of people in this country if they'd just remember that rather obvious fact.

Sorry, but I'm not one of those that subscribe to the art-feeds-deviancy school of psychiatry. There's still enormous debate about how art influences behavior, and/or vice versa, so that will not sway me as far as The Danger To Our Morals. Freedom of expression is one of the things that make a vibrant society, and should be encouraged, yes. Nobody is talking about hanging porno on the courthouse wall, but neither is it okay to tell an artist she shouldn't be doing whatever she's doing in her art, especially when she's not forcing anyone to look at it.

And no, I do not happen to have a problem with fictional porn. Know why? Because it's fiction.. It is not about reality. Fantasy is fantasy, a healthy mind knows the difference, you can't expect an artist to go around policing who sees her work to keep the perverts out, and my fucking GOD, I can't believe I'm having to say all this for the 3865th time in this fandom.

Bottom line: Some people intent on minding others' business for them bitched at a wonderful artist, who then closed her site because of the attack. Nothing was gained by anybody here, other than a few nasty ego points for some pissy meddlers. If you're expecting me to have any sympathy in this situation, you're wasting your breath.

I'm glad someone has said something about this. This was her first picture drawn as a request to her English speaking fans, and this was the thanks she got...

Yes, that's what completely galls me. This talented artist is doing these pics for free, and asking for nothing in return for their free usage, and some dipshit comes along and pounds her for her generosity. And then get snotty about their "right" to hound an artist just because they don't like what she's producing.

Truly fucked up, that.

P.S. Glad to see you're still around!

Not around nearly as much except to help Aina with the scout once in a while. Rei's work is still one of the few things I look at and it's sad to see this happen to her.

I'm still surprised some people are considering this pedophilia. I think I've only come across one Japanese site with Frodo/Sam that fit that criteria and Rei's picture doesn't even come close. It's just not that common in the Japanese LOTR fandom. Then again, all the interspecies probably makes up for that...

Heehee. And of course there is always the contingent that insists LOTR interspecies is just gussied up child abuse. What is it with people who can't just shrug and turn the page? I just don't see how a picture way the hell over on someone's journal, which no one is obligated to visit, can be so friggin' awful.

I'll say one thing. When they start comparing Frodo kissing Sam with a guy fucking a box turtle, I will have to get down the bullwhip.

Did someone say that? I didn't read into the whole argument that people were posting...

Um...did someone say what? We weren't discussing interspecies in this post; I was just snarking on what you said about Japanese sites. ;)

I meant about the box turtle.

I like the little ficlet you just wrote. I describes what I thought of when I saw the picture. :)

Oh dear

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