Oh dear

[serai]

It looks like mucun has closed her slash site:

http://havens.sakura.ne.jp/ban/

Wonder what happened? Anybody here read Japanese? It looks like she left a note.



ETA: OK, I've been over to Rei's journal and read the latest on the brouhaha.

And I can say that I am now officially disgusted with this fandom. I suppose it's a branch of my disgust with this prudish, finger-pointing, dirty-minded culture in general, that can see some kind of twisted sex in a rather sweet image of affection between friends. God, people can be filthy sometimes.

Feh.

Comments

[twothreefour.livejournal.com]

the note says "shibaraku oyasumi shimasu" (going to sleep for a while) which means she's just taking it down temporarily, I hope. The problem here is cultural and nonnymouses screeching OMG PEDO IN MY INTERNETS. Yes, there is such a thing as shotacon but this is not it. I think anybody could tell the difference. *rolls eyes*　To demand the artist change her own artwork takes some adult-sized balls, if you ask me.

I swear to god the Tolkien fandom attracts the easily offended. I'm glad to say that I'd rather be in a Japanese media fandom instead.

またね。

[serai1.livejournal.com]

And to be honest, I'M honestly distressed that a wonderful artist has now closed down her site because of the American tendency, in any situation, to insist on seeing things OUR WAY, and that any artist from anywhere in the world must conform to OUR STANDARDS. Because, of course, OUR FEELINGS and OUR VALUES must trump anyone else's. Did it occur to anyone over there that this was an artist from another culture, and maybe she has a right to express herself appropriately for that culture, regardless of what WE in our almighty moral superiority might think? Why should it? After all, we always know what is best, and failing that, we know what WE WANT, and that should always win.

No, sorry, hon. I'm not cutting anyone any slack here. I consider those reactions to mucun's lovely artwork to be selfish and ill-considered. Whatever was offensive in that picture was being placed there by the minds of those looking at it, and that may be all well and good for those who want to view the world as sick and dangerous, but I do not hold with the idea that a person has the right to walk into someone else's space and start decrying the decor. It's rude and childish, for one thing.

And it's punishing Rei for whatever past the complainers are reacting to. It's not her fault some people in America have problems, and I'm shocked that anyone would treat her as if she were some kind of criminal, when all she's done has been provide us with incredibly lovely illustrations for years now, free of charge or demand of credit. I've seen this happen before, Lindalea. Some paranoid with a stick up her ass comes along waving a cane at the pervert, a big fuss happens and the artist decides I don't need this shit, thanks, and jumps ship. And the rest of us get to lose out on beautiful work because somebody just HAD to whip it out for a toss. I'm sick of good artists being hounded out of this fandom, thanks. It's happened before, and excuse me, but I didn't shut up then either.

[serai1.livejournal.com]

This kind of crap just maddens me, as you well know. Whatever happened to people minding their own business?

I sure hope Rei hasn't closed up shop forever on that site. She's my favorite hobbit illustrator, and I'm seriously pissed at being cut off even if it's only for a while. *growl*

And yeah on the easily offended. What is up with that? OK, fine, if they wanna be all G-rated and shit, fine. But why can't they just stay over in G-rated land? Why the hell do some people feel obligated to jump all over folks who aren't doing them any harm? What is it about Americans that breeds this driving urge to piss on other people's lawns?

[ladysunrope.livejournal.com]

This is so well expressed and I totally agree with you. I'm at a complete loss as to why some Americans have this view about sex and feel it absolutely fine to insist others have it too. I'm English and would have had no problem with my children seeing that original picture but then I don't automatically see wrong when I see explicit nude pictures, or naked guys together and neither thank god, do they.
Rei has done some superb pictures and it hurts to think that she has been attacked by an anonymous poster who hasn't the courage to sign his/her name. I really feel for her.

[serai1.livejournal.com]

Thanks, LSR. There is a twisted sickness to the "morals" in this country that I find maddening. Combine it with the American tendency to self-worship and the results can be totally disheartening. Like I said, this isn't the first time it's happened in this fandom, and the whole thing just makes me want to deliver some spankings and send them to bed without supper.

[twothreefour.livejournal.com]

When has anyone in fandom ever minded their own business? *laugh*

Ah, who can say. I have a whole set of bookmarks of LOTR fanart websites that are defunct and 404'd for whatever reason-- mostly because they've changed fandoms or whatever. I can tell you that to get to any online pages that show explicit sexual acts by some artists takes a password and knowing where the secret page is.

Japanese sexual mores are a little different than ours-- for the people who screeched at Rei over a drawing of a kiss, in Rei's country it is highly unusual to see anyone express affection in public and even kissing your husband on the street would cause people to point and stare.

I think people in the West that have live in Christian- dominated societies have been trained in the particular belief that our bodies are dirty, evil and will betray our mind at any moment because we HAVE to fulfill the futile demand by religion for us to be pure, clean, and sexless just like the imaginary Sky God. Our best hope is to keep our sexual urges as beaten down and boxed up as much as possible- which tends to make people fucked up and express themselves in twisted ways.

I also think that our US government has spent lots of time and money on the "war on child pornography" just like the "war on drugs" and the "war on TERRAH", and you can see how effective those things have been over time. By declaring war on those things, it is then OK to demonize people for whatever reason- drug addicts are thrown in jail for decades thanks to mandatory minimums, and murderers get out on parole, people of color get harassed on planes and in public because they look like 'terrorists', and people who aren't in the norm of accepted sexuality are called pedophiles, like that Mark Foley character. He didn't just solicit sex with his teenaged male employees- which just makes him gay and a 'chicken hawk', he's a CHILD RAPIST OMG. Add to that our belief that everything revolves around us, and our feelings, our damage, our issues, our drama. Psh.

[serai1.livejournal.com]

Yo to all of that. It's fucking 1984. What weirds me out is that it's so...Un-American. Censorship and curtailing the freedom of expression, art and media. There's just too much of the police state "we know best" mentality about it. The artist doesn't know what she's doing, WE DO! And we must fight to protect purity! And that heads into lands that are most definitely unhealthy for a culture to enter.

*shudder* There is no way that kind of thing will ever fly with me, no matter what the reason.

[estelanui.livejournal.com]

I read today the discussion on Rei LJ and now I feel very distressed and depressed.

I’m distressed for Rei who is a wonderful, sensible artist not deserving such accusation for an innocent picture.

I’m depressed how every time I see someone judge another following one’s personal principle and feelings without asking oneself if they have the same meaning for the other, and more the judgment is made completely out of context.
Internet is supposed to be and ‘international’ environment in which different cultures converge and try to communicate and understand each other. It is, at least, small-town mentality or ignorance (that is not know) thinking that laws and feelings of a Nation are universal for the rest of the world.

I live in ‘catholic’, ‘narrow-minded’ Italy: here LotR movies are G and not PG-13; here ‘Sin City’ is G and ‘Brokeback Montain’ is PG. So, I know that when I’m in an international environment I have to increase my sensibility, and that an evaluation (or judgment) following my only feelings and culture is unsuitable.

In any case, I think this sentence is completely true (for me) and I remember it when I feel the urge to judge other people: ” For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness: all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man”.

[cara-chapel.livejournal.com]

I tried to defend her art, but I am afraid she doesn't read English well enough to know that. :(

*feels bad about the whole thing*

[serai1.livejournal.com]

Yes, definitely. These things are in the eye of the beholder, so when someone looks at a picture like that and says it's dirty, I learn much more about their minds than about the picture. I guess I just don't understand minds that look at love and see filth. It's incomprehensible to me.

Brokeback Mountain is PG? LOL. That is really great. :)

[serai1.livejournal.com]

That is frustrating. I'm thinking about writing to her on the subject of Not Feeding Trolls, but I'm afraid it might come off badly. It's distressing to see artists caving in to people of that nature, and also very telling that said people seem to target thoses who will easily give in. Rei is clearly a nice person, and thus an easy target for flamers.

Myself, I've been wishing for years that I'd get some flames, but no luck yet. Folks like that don't much relish a real fight, I guess.

[gloryunderhill.livejournal.com]

WTF? That's the most appalling conversation I've read in ages. Reading something dirty into that sweet picture says far more about the mind of the viewer than the artist! So now we need warnings for innocence? Feh!

[celandine-g.livejournal.com]

What a sad discussion this was. I am so sorry for Rei who is doubtless a lovely, sensitive person who now thinks she did something wrong, and I agree with Gloryunderhill that it is just appalling. The same thing happened to me so I know first-hand how much it hurts and how much you just want to lash out, delete everything, and escape.

But I also learned that these people need to be (and can be) ignored and not allowed to ruin LJ for one's self and others. I am so happy that I jettisoned such individuals from my LJ life and continued on to have a perfectly enjoyable and lovely experience associating with wonderful friends and other open-minded individuals.

*shakes head* Still, it just is so sad to see it happen to someone.

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

I am with you on every word you say here, and it's unusual for me to agree so completely on anything. There was nothing, whatsoever, wrong with Rei's picture, and I hope she receives enough support to bring back her slash site in the near future. I truly wish that I spoke Japanese.

To me, this goes beyond terrorizing an artist (an act I can't support, no matter what). To be blunt, I also think that it's immensely damaging to label such pictures as pedophilic, as it deprives people of yet another innocent form of expressing affection between each other. As it is, men can't touch each other in affection without being assumed to be gay (and bullied about it in this homophobic society), men and women are barely allowed to touch without a chaperon, lest they be thought to be having an affair, and anyone touching a child is a presumed pedophile. What do we want? A society of robots who can't bear to touch each other except to kill, fight or have sex? Frankly, with all this emphasis on sex, it looks as though American prurience knows no bounds. When it comes to how we raise our children, what with teachers being forbidden to hug or comfort crying four-year-olds (or eight-year-olds) consigned to the school system, I really fear for the sociopathy that will plague us in the all-too-near future when these children grow into emotionally stunted adults.

Sorry to bring such a vitriolic soap-box to your journal, but thank you for the opportunity to express my views.

Catherine

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear! Very well put.

Catherine

[mews1945.livejournal.com]

I agree with much of what you say. I do however take exception to your saying "Americans" as though it's all of us who are like that. I have some hangups, but I don't think I deserve to be lumped in with all Americans. I'm an individual and make up my own mind about what I do or don't believe, and I certainly believe in the right of everyone to have and state his or her own opinions. Rei's work is lovely and heartfelt, and that's my, and only my, opinion because I don't speak for anyone except myself.

[serai1.livejournal.com]

That's certainly what I've always said. It's interesting how people with this kind of dirty mind never seem to realize what they're trumpeting so loudly for everyone to see, isn't it? I mean, it's already a ridiculoud argument even when the subject really is pornographic artwork (i.e., no actual people are involved in the art, so what the fuck is their problem??), but when we come to a completely innocent image, there's nothing to be concluded but that they are, in fact, dirty-minded perverts themselves.

*rolls eyes*

[serai1.livejournal.com]

What I don't understand is the whole impulse to proclaim their disapproval where the artist will be forced to deal with their pettiness. Excuse me, manners? If you don't like something like that, the place to talk about it is one's own journal. That way one's opinion remains an opinion, freely stated, and not some club that they can browbeat others with. (The gods know I've bitched on my LJ enough about things that get to me, and if they'd done it on their own space, I'd have not a problem with it.) But damn if Murrikins don't love a good browbeating, especially when they're the ones who get to do the thumpin'. It's not enough to disapprove, it's got to be a public caning.

But what pisses me off is the effect these biddies have on the fandom. Every time somebody gets her panties all bunched up like this, we usually lose another writer or artist. It's happened several times now, and I wonder what kind of people can actually act like this and still call themselves adults. It's deeply childish behavior, in my view - Waahhh! Look at me!! I'm offended!! Wahhh! You have to do what I say because I'M OFFENDED!

Where's Stephen Colbert when you need him?

[elderberrywine.livejournal.com]

Imagine an elderly man meeting a young boy, who is no relative or acquaintance of his. As a greeting, he pulls up the boy's shirt and kisses him on the bare stomach. Pedophile, right? Add the details that the man was the leader of Russia and that the boy's mother stood proudly by, beaming at the raspberry kisses. The picture changes, does it not?

Kissing is a culturally influenced custom and in the most of the world, does not automatically equate to sex. For someone to find their way to a site belonging to someone of a different culture, and imply evil where clearly none was intended, is not only narrow-minded and reprehensible, but abominably rude as well.

And yet those who caused grief to the site's owner appear to feel that their actions are clothed in moral rectitude, depite the fact that those depicted were two fictional non-human minors. That certainly does not meet any definition of pedophilia with which I am acquainted. Of course, there really is no reasoning possible here, since one hits that peculiar way of thinking that my way is right, and your way, if you do not agree with me, is evil. That is a way of thinking that has, unfortunately, become all too common in American society.

I must say, however, that I believe that the root cause of the original comments was an active dislike to the prevalence of slash within the LOTR fan community. And fair enough, the tent of the fandom should be wide enough for all of us. As a hobbit slash writer, there are sections of that tent that I do not find at all appealing, and yet I can concede that others might, and wish them joy in sharing with others of a like mind. There is no need for me to belittle them, or imply that they are less wholesome, somehow, and put me off my feed. For indeed they do, but I am sensible enough to just not go there, and let them be.

I really feel that an apology is in order by those who caused a sensitive and gentle artist such unnecessary pain, and I thank you, Serai, for being the voice, as usual, of conscience.

[serai1.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the tendency to censor expression out of fear is truly ruining this culture. In my view, freedom of expression should not be curtailed just because somebody MIGHT be offended somewhere, and that goes for any artwork. If some parent is worried about what his/her child might see, then it's his/her responsibility to steer the kid away. It's NOT the artist's responsibility to change her work, methods, or choice of publication. It's not my place or anyone else's to mind their children, and I'm getting pretty fucking sick of constantly being bombarded with this kind of crap because of "Oooo! ThE Children!!!"

For one thing, kids are resilient and not even a tenth as prone to scarring and psychological damage as we're all being indoctrinated to believe. It's the adults who get all dithery over the sight of an innocent kiss, a feeding breast, or the possibility that adults play strange games when they get together. Americans have slowly tortured their worldview into this weird position where the slightest indication of physical joy, intimacy or comfort is immediately interpreted as "sexual predator" behavior, and thus are basically constrained to an everlastingly uncomfortable round-robin of jumping at shadows and pulling against chains to keep themselves balanced on the precarious tip-toes of ever-tightening notions of propriety.

Which, interestintly enough, presents an image that any B&D enthusiast could identify. It's called "predicament bondage", and seems to be quite the turn-on for those jolly deviant folks who love to tie each other up. It seems a person can get quite a nice, colossal orgasm trussed up like that. Curious corollation, what?

Personally, I can think of no greater danger for children these days than this culture-wide hysteria about "pedophilia". What's damaging is not the mythical pervert jerking off behind a tree. It's the millions of parents, officials, TV shows, ads - the entire cultural milieu, in fact - constantly trumpeting the supposed dangers of modern life, and the alleged necessity to be ever-vigilant against some drooling phantom of darkness. Seems to me there's vastly more change that kids are gonna be scarred by the boogeyman of their parents' imaginings than by any actual person that might wish them harm, considering what living in that kind of paranoid atmosphere can do to the curiosity and energy of the average kid.

But do the prudes and hysterics ever think of that? Of course not. If they were really trying to protect The Children, they'd never let them ride in a car, or eat processed foods, or swim in the ocean, or all manner of other things far more statistically likely to put them in danger than whatever nebulous Kreugeroid might be hiding in the bushes.

It's all too idiotic, and this culture is just too enthusiastically embracing this culture of fear, for me to have any sympathy for such a viewpoint. Maybe if the finger-pointers weren't quite so lip-smackingly self-righteous about their proclivities, I might be inclined to feel for a few people who actually DO have cause to be upset. But those with real cause are few and far between, and I have found that they are usually the ones who prefer to mind their own business. It's the ones who feel they have the right to run roughshod over anyone else that are just feeding their own egos, and are focussed more than anything on re-ordering the world to their own standards, not trying to actually make things better for anybody.

ARGH.

[celandine-g.livejournal.com]

Every time somebody gets her panties all bunched up like this, we usually lose another writer or artist.

Yes, that is the rub, isn't it? Everyone loses. But I do think these bullies should be called on it--especially, as you say, when they endeavor to insult someone on their own journal (and to have one's work labeled "pedophilia" is not nice, folks). They need to be told off but then I also think they need to be jettisoned into some black void somewhere, ignored, and forgotten--a fate worse than death to them, I'm sure.

So I hope that Rei doesn't give them any satisfaction and puts her site right back up, turning her back on the "biddies" (good term), and relegating them to the self-serving, insignificant, and meaningless background they deserve.

[serai1.livejournal.com]

*counts to ten*

To quote Doctor Hayward, "Dick, I did not drop you on your head when I brought you into this world. Don't give me cause to regret that."

Julie, I think you're a great person, and I sure can't remember you ever being the kind of asshat that we're talking about. I've made a general statement about an ugly trend in America, and you seem to have taken it personally and put words in my mouth. As you well know, I wasn't talking about you in particular, and if you're going to insist that nobody ever be allowed to use a generality should you happen to fall into the category being talked about, then you're going to run into trouble, since it's impossible to talk about cultural and social issues without employing these kinds of generalities.

Reading my post and comments here, what exactly makes you think that anyone would say, "Oh yeah, mews1945 is definitely one of them!" Since you don't go around bitching at others for their artwork, who's going to think I'm talking about you? And therefore, why do you feel the need to proclaim that you are Not One Of Them? Volunteering the information that "I am not a prude!" (or a pervert, or a thief, or a lawyer) rather begs the question, "And who exactly said you were?"

However, I do appreciate that you agree with what I'm saying, Julie, and that you wanted to be supportive of the discussion, and you have my thanks for that, absolutely.

[gloryunderhill.livejournal.com]

Seeing obscenity in something innocent sounds a lot like something Lobelia would do...should I write the fic or will you? *g* Notice how it's the puritanical who seem to squawk like this? Repression causes more of what it seeks to repress and makes it come out nasty and hurtful.

My friend's daughter used to do the cutest thing before her bath when she was three. She'd run out into the living room (at our encouragement) and shake her booty while we all sang out "Naked Booty Dance!" Then she'd run back in the bathroom giggling. It was the cutest thing. Then my friend's parents came to visit once and so we encouraged the little one to do Naked Booty Dance for their entertainment. They said it was disgusting and all of us looked at them like they were from Mars. I was shocked by their response. How sad for them to be so repressed they couldn't see the cute in a happy toddler tickled to be naked for a moment?

I'm sure ridiculoud was a type-o, but I think it's the accidental creation of a perfect word for that type of person.

[gloryunderhill.livejournal.com]

When Rei's feelings heal a bit, I hope she can look back on how many people love her work (and this one in particular) as compared to the tiny number of detractors.

I agree with you and love your use of the word "jettisoned!" Perfect.

[gloryunderhill.livejournal.com]

When it comes to how we raise our children, what with teachers being forbidden to hug or comfort crying four-year-olds (or eight-year-olds) consigned to the school system, I really fear for the sociopathy that will plague us in the all-too-near future when these children grow into emotionally stunted adults.

This was beautifully said. *nominates you for president*