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Tuesday, February 27th, 2007 06:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
serai.
James Cameron says he's found the tomb of Jesus. (No, not that one.) He's releasing a documentary about it, and presenting his theories about how the discovery disproves the whole resurrection thing.
Uh-oh.
After reading through some of the comments over there, I decided to put in my two pesetas. Since I can't be sure the comment will show up - they are screened - I've included it here:
What I'd like to know is why this is such a big deal to Christians. From where I stand, what was important about Jesus was not whether he was the scion of a deity - that was not a rare claim back then. Neither was it his ability to do feats of magic - after all, every trick he did was also performed by other magicians of the time, which is why the religious authorities of his day refused to accept them as proof of anything. (The water into wine trick was especially common.) And he was hardly the only guru to do things like walk on water - Buddhists texts from 200 years before Christ contain that exact same story about Gautama. Neither was his "conquering death" the point.
As I see it, what was important about Jesus was what he SAID, what he TAUGHT, what he tried to instill in his followers - be kind, be generous, be circumspect, be responsible. If a man ask for your cloak, give him your shirt as well. (So don't sneer at that guy in the street begging for a quarter - give him a dollar instead. Better yet, give him five.) Do not store up treasure for yourself on earth. (So stop being so selfish with your money and earthly possessions, 'cause they ain't gonna last.) If you come to a town where your preaching is rejected, brush the dust from your shoes and walk away. (So if people don't want to hear your caterwauling about what you believe, have the good sense to SHUT UP AND LEAVE, because insisting on haranguing people gives your god a bad name.)
These and all the other lessons he taught were smart, compassionate, valid jewels from the mouth of a great teacher. Yet how often do we actually see all these people who go on and on and ON AND ON AND ON about how Jesus was God and Lord and Prince of Peace (that's a laugh, coming from the warmongering right) and Grand High Poobah, how often do we see them really abiding by the actual words this man said? I mean, REALLY living by it? Pretty damn rarely, in my experience.
Oh sure, they'll tithe to their churches, but give money away? REALLY give it away, as in handing it out and never seeing it come back in any form? Yeah, right. How about feeding the hungry? (Other than their friends at Thanksgiving and Christmas, that is.) Clothing the naked? (Maybe they'll box up some old t-shirts every few years. MAYBE. If you guilt-trip them hard enough.) Visitng those in prison, which Jesus specifically mentioned? (Your cousin Pete doesn't count.)
How about turning the other cheek? THAT is one of the absolutely central messages of Jesus's mission, and I have yet to meet a Christian who lives by it. Some of the most violently bigoted people in this country call themselves Christians. How often have you heard a Christian talk about trying to understand and show love to the people who perpetrate terrorist acts? And yet that is what Jesus told his followers to do - show love to those that hurt you, compassion for those that persecute you. Not just MOUTHING words of love, actually ACTING WITH LOVE. How often do you see that?
Again, pretty damn rarely. In fact, I can't remember ever hearing a Christian say that maybe if we'd tried to show love to those that attacked us, things might turn out differently. Richard Gere said it - openly, in public. He espoused the very view that Jesus had on the question of violence and retribution and got hounded into silence by all the "good Christians" who were there when he said it. Those "good folk" were completely focused on their vengeance, hatred and violence, and had no interest whatsoever in hearing such un-American, pansy-ass, Commie crap as "Blessed are the peacemakers" and "The meek shall inherit the earth". Not them, oh no.
What most Christians seem to want is for Jesus to be a hood ornament for their gospel SUV, rather than a teacher who proposed difficult concepts such as forgiveness, tolerance, generosity, humility, compassion, kindness, selflessness, sacrifice. (Remember sacrifice? Wow, if that isn't a quaint-sounding word these days, and yet it's what Jesus was all about.) The kind of people who want Jesus to be some kind of sparkly immortal Spirit Guide don't want to give up their comforts or prejudices, don't want to be told their way of life is obscene because it depends on an exponentially greater number of people living in misery, hunger and pain. They want their TVs and their big cars and their iPods, they want their country to pound the crap out of anyone who disagrees with them, they want to live with their heads in the sand, all puffed up with self-righteousness about how GOOD and SAVED and MORALLY CORRECT they are, all the while ignoring the very lessions the man they claim to be God left for them.
I have a suspicion these people have a really, REALLY nasty surprise waiting for them on the other side of the grave. If Jesus really is the guy the Bible claims he is, when they get to his throne, he is going to unleash a serious can of whupass on them. Because you know, irony can be pretty ironic like that.
James Cameron says he's found the tomb of Jesus. (No, not that one.) He's releasing a documentary about it, and presenting his theories about how the discovery disproves the whole resurrection thing.
Uh-oh.
After reading through some of the comments over there, I decided to put in my two pesetas. Since I can't be sure the comment will show up - they are screened - I've included it here:
What I'd like to know is why this is such a big deal to Christians. From where I stand, what was important about Jesus was not whether he was the scion of a deity - that was not a rare claim back then. Neither was it his ability to do feats of magic - after all, every trick he did was also performed by other magicians of the time, which is why the religious authorities of his day refused to accept them as proof of anything. (The water into wine trick was especially common.) And he was hardly the only guru to do things like walk on water - Buddhists texts from 200 years before Christ contain that exact same story about Gautama. Neither was his "conquering death" the point.
As I see it, what was important about Jesus was what he SAID, what he TAUGHT, what he tried to instill in his followers - be kind, be generous, be circumspect, be responsible. If a man ask for your cloak, give him your shirt as well. (So don't sneer at that guy in the street begging for a quarter - give him a dollar instead. Better yet, give him five.) Do not store up treasure for yourself on earth. (So stop being so selfish with your money and earthly possessions, 'cause they ain't gonna last.) If you come to a town where your preaching is rejected, brush the dust from your shoes and walk away. (So if people don't want to hear your caterwauling about what you believe, have the good sense to SHUT UP AND LEAVE, because insisting on haranguing people gives your god a bad name.)
These and all the other lessons he taught were smart, compassionate, valid jewels from the mouth of a great teacher. Yet how often do we actually see all these people who go on and on and ON AND ON AND ON about how Jesus was God and Lord and Prince of Peace (that's a laugh, coming from the warmongering right) and Grand High Poobah, how often do we see them really abiding by the actual words this man said? I mean, REALLY living by it? Pretty damn rarely, in my experience.
Oh sure, they'll tithe to their churches, but give money away? REALLY give it away, as in handing it out and never seeing it come back in any form? Yeah, right. How about feeding the hungry? (Other than their friends at Thanksgiving and Christmas, that is.) Clothing the naked? (Maybe they'll box up some old t-shirts every few years. MAYBE. If you guilt-trip them hard enough.) Visitng those in prison, which Jesus specifically mentioned? (Your cousin Pete doesn't count.)
How about turning the other cheek? THAT is one of the absolutely central messages of Jesus's mission, and I have yet to meet a Christian who lives by it. Some of the most violently bigoted people in this country call themselves Christians. How often have you heard a Christian talk about trying to understand and show love to the people who perpetrate terrorist acts? And yet that is what Jesus told his followers to do - show love to those that hurt you, compassion for those that persecute you. Not just MOUTHING words of love, actually ACTING WITH LOVE. How often do you see that?
Again, pretty damn rarely. In fact, I can't remember ever hearing a Christian say that maybe if we'd tried to show love to those that attacked us, things might turn out differently. Richard Gere said it - openly, in public. He espoused the very view that Jesus had on the question of violence and retribution and got hounded into silence by all the "good Christians" who were there when he said it. Those "good folk" were completely focused on their vengeance, hatred and violence, and had no interest whatsoever in hearing such un-American, pansy-ass, Commie crap as "Blessed are the peacemakers" and "The meek shall inherit the earth". Not them, oh no.
What most Christians seem to want is for Jesus to be a hood ornament for their gospel SUV, rather than a teacher who proposed difficult concepts such as forgiveness, tolerance, generosity, humility, compassion, kindness, selflessness, sacrifice. (Remember sacrifice? Wow, if that isn't a quaint-sounding word these days, and yet it's what Jesus was all about.) The kind of people who want Jesus to be some kind of sparkly immortal Spirit Guide don't want to give up their comforts or prejudices, don't want to be told their way of life is obscene because it depends on an exponentially greater number of people living in misery, hunger and pain. They want their TVs and their big cars and their iPods, they want their country to pound the crap out of anyone who disagrees with them, they want to live with their heads in the sand, all puffed up with self-righteousness about how GOOD and SAVED and MORALLY CORRECT they are, all the while ignoring the very lessions the man they claim to be God left for them.
I have a suspicion these people have a really, REALLY nasty surprise waiting for them on the other side of the grave. If Jesus really is the guy the Bible claims he is, when they get to his throne, he is going to unleash a serious can of whupass on them. Because you know, irony can be pretty ironic like that.
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Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 03:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 03:45 am (UTC)The very best Christians I've ever known were all Buddhists. (Well, there was one pretty excellent, loving, curious, inclusive Christian I knew. But he got a revelatory dream from the Goddess and became a pagan, so that was that.) That's a big reason why I cannot take the claims of the Bible-thumpers seriously - when your fellow worshippers are trumped hands-down at your own game by a completely (and I mean completely) different religion, it doesn't say much for the integrity of what you're pushing on others.
Maybe if Christianity required the kind of rigorous, physically challenging daily dedication that Buddhism does, more of Jesus's followers would be less inclined to hypocrisy. Of course, some encouragment of questioning, discussion, experimentation and deciding for oneself just what is and isn't true might help, as well. But we can't have people actually thinking like adults, can we? That would ruin all the rich preachers' fun, that.
no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 03:53 am (UTC)What most Christians seem to want is for Jesus to be a hood ornament for their gospel SUV
...coupled with the judgement day can of whupass had me cheering and laughing in agreement.
no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 03:59 am (UTC)Thank you, thank you. I'll be appearing at the Cocoanut Grove all week.
Seriously, I'm just floored by the pig-ignorant blinkeredness of some of these people. I keep thinking of what Graham Norton said about crazy celebrities, that their problem is they don't have any non-starstruck friends around to tell them, "No!"
no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 04:05 am (UTC)I'm gonna go kill my brother now, cos' he and his wife planted beans next to tomatoes a few years ago. I've been waiting much too long. Well... I feel like killing my brother anyway, but that's beside the point...
Very good essay. There's another person in there that I like, arguing with one of the mindless drones. It's good to speak up.
What a WONDROUS RIDE this shall be!!
no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 05:07 am (UTC)I just love it when Bible-thumpers talk about the LITERAL TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, but manage to ignore every single thing that's inconvenient about it. Their arguments devolve into something you'd hear out of a third-grader's mouth: "It does NOT say that! Nuh-uh!" Too funny by half.
no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 04:06 am (UTC)I am so glad to hear someone else say that! I'm a Christian and I don't care if Jesus was resurrected, I don't even care if he was literally the son of God, he was a good man who taught some very good lessons on how to be a good human being. I know a lot of Christians and non Christians who act through love and give selflessly not because they want something in return, but it's always the "Good Decent God Fearing Christians" who speak the loudest and do the least. They have all the money and don't give it away to those who really need it. They condemn gays because love is apparently abhorent if you're not the 'right' gender. They condone wars because it makes the darker skinned people go away or step into line. The vocal minority are the least Christian-like Christians I have ever seen. I'm sorry to say too that there seems to be a disproportionate number of them in the US, though there are some here too.
And so many people don't even know their history, there are people who say "Jesus wasn't even real", yet if they pick up their history books they'll find out he did exist - that's not something that's unsure, what's unsure is if he was the son of God. And the crap some Christians go on with, saying Mary wasn't anyone special - no she was just the mother of the man they're worshiping!
Who cares if Jesus' remains are still here, who cares if he did marry Mary Magdelene and whether she was a former prostitute or not, we should care about living with some morals instead of judgements. But I guess people like them will never get it and just see us as 'heathens'.
One thing I don't get about the current debate over whether it's Jesus' tomb or not is that they say the name on the tomb is Yesua yet I leant at school that his real name was Yoshua Ben Yosef. It's possible of course that some translator along the line changed but it's an odd discrepancy
Thanks!
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 04:55 am (UTC)As to the name on the tomb: Nope, it's not a discrepancy at all. It's the fact that Jesus's original name was never written in the Roman alphabet we use until well after his death. The Hebrew alphabet has to be transliterated into our writing, and just like Chinese, a word from Hebrew or Aramaic can be spelled multiple ways when written with our characters. It's still exactly the same name.
And I will say that I think it's very important whether the Magdalene was a prostitute or not. Which she most certainly was not - if you read the Bible carefully you'll find no one ever said she was. That tradition started hundreds of years later, and it's important because she was the only woman known to have traveled and hung out with Jesus, and who was written about as being equal to the other disciples in his eyes. That's far too much legitimacy and power for a woman, decided the later popes, and so the myth of Mary the Prostitute was created, by conflating three different women - Mary Magdalene, the woman taken in adultery, and the repentant sinner - who had nothing to do with each other. The whole point of the deception was to squelch any possibility of a female role model co-eval with Peter and Paul. That, I feel, is a very important debate, and it's relevant to what I commented above because it's another example of Christians diametrically opposing Jesus's teachings and twisting his words into a shape that fits their political and social agenda.
Re: Thanks!
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 05:23 am (UTC)Good point about the alphabet, thank you, I'd forgotten about that, so you're right it is possible that Yesua and Yoshua would be the same name just spelled differently.
I agree with your comments about Mary Magdelene too, and the reason I said it doesn't matter to me whether she was a prostitute or not is because I think if she was a prostitute and Jesus thought she was good enough to be around and treated her like an equal, then people should rethink the derogatory attitudes they have towards prostitutes or people they deem 'unworthy'. I know the Church of England didn't like Mary (Jesus' mother) being seen as anyone important and that's one of the reasons they split with the Roman Catholic church. I was raised by Catholic parents and I've just grown up knowing that Mary's worth a hell of a lot of respect, I mean if God thought she was someone special who are we to say she wasn't? But as you said, a lot of religious leaders try and diminish the role of women in the church and shunning Mary is one of their ways to do that. I have to say though that poor old Joseph hardly gets a look in, poor guy needs some credit too ;)
And that waffle they're going on about with doing DNA tests on the remains? How would that prove anything? They don't have any DNA of the real Jesus to compare the remains to so it won't prove anything! Maybe I should loan James Cameron and co my books on genetics ;)
Re: Thanks!
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 05:54 am (UTC)But we give such people constitutional protection because their obsessions are clothed in the veneer of religion. And then they have the gall to run around telling others that they're the only ones who are moral and righteous and good. To quote Woody Allen, "If Jesus were to come back today and see what's being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up."
Well, the actual historical reason for the Anglican schism was that Rome wouldn't give Henry VIII a divorce from Catherine of Aragon. He threw a hissy fit and declared himself the Pontiff in England. But it certainly snowballed after that, and Rome's views on a lot of things added fuel to their fire. Henry's tantrum gave the nobility in England a great excuse to loot the monasteries, stealing all the valuable gold and silver, and seizing the monks' lands (thus throwing all those hard-working peasants into the streets and creating a new beggar class). Just goes to show how much trouble a ruler can stir up when he decides to have his way No Matter What. A lesson we're certainly reliving now!
And oh, James, James, James. None of this surprises me. The guy's made some good action flicks, but the sharpest tack in the box, he ain't. I look forward to the Geraldo Rivera comparisons, myself.
Re: Thanks!
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 06:17 am (UTC)And people are such sticklers for details, and the details they cling to are usually incorrect. Like all those Bible bashers who were convinced that Jesus was coming back on the Millenium to kill the sinners (because that's what the Prince of Peace does) and take the Righteous up to Heaven on golden clouds. And so they go to Jerusalem (the prearranged meeting place with Jesus, he left a text message for them) and they go there in the year 2000. Which is not the millenium. There was no year 0, so the millenium was 2001 and I'm guessing Jesus turned up there to find no one waiting for him because they'd been there the year before, packed his bags and went home ;P
It's funny, now after all the years of fighting between the Protestants and the Catholics my mum told me the other day they're potentially in talks again about possibly joining the two churches up again. Apparently one of the former Popes suggested the idea but it was considered too 'controversial' so they shelved it, but it's on the table again.
I'm always amazed at the modern image of Christ too, white skin and light brown hair and blue eyes, Mary has white skin and blue eyes and sometimes blonde hair. They were from the Middle East, yet somehow modern Christian seem to think they looked Dutch. I remember in Studies in Religion they taught that one theory of what Jesus looked like said that it was believed he was 5 foot tall, dark haired, dark skinned and a hunch back. I bet there wouldn't be too many SUV driving lambs wanting to follow a shepherd who looked like that.
Re: Thanks!
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 06:52 am (UTC)And how weird is it that these people seem to think that reveling in the idea of torture and murder somehow takes away their sins and admits them into Heaven? If that's true, I really don't want to know what kind of people they'll be keeping company with. It never seems to occur to them that the very imagery is reprehensible, that pain and torture are not things to be glad about. (Gee, I wonder where the Current Occupant gets the idea that it's okay to torture prisoners?) The irony just whizzes right past them, damn near clipping their ears.
The Protestants and the Catholics? Are you sure you don't mean the Anglicans and the Catholics? 'Cause the Anglicans are also Catholics, just not Roman Catholics, and I find the idea of them getting back together far more plausible than the union of Protestants and Catholics. It's very difficult for me to believe that the likes of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson would ever consider joinng up with the Pope.
it was believed he was 5 foot tall, dark haired, dark skinned and a hunch back.
Ahaha. You should read Behold the Man, by Michael Moorcock. A novel about a crucifixion-obsessed time traveler, who goes back in time to fulfill his deepest wish and meet Jesus, only to find that the guy was a hunchback son of a slattern who'd slept with her whole village, practically, and who had the IQ of a large dog. Since there was manifestly nobody around who actually was Jesus in the biblical sense, he realized he had to take the role on himself. The book is a great read, very biting satire on religion in general, and the peculiar brand of blood-soaked Jesus fixation in particular. Quite a ride!
Re: Thanks!
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 07:15 am (UTC)People have often questioned why Catholics have the crucifix as the symbol of Jesus and say that it's such a violent image. And it is a violent image but I've never known any Catholics who focus so strongly on the violence and torture that happened to Jesus, but these fundamentalists...as you said it's like they revel in it. I was discussing homosexuality and the Bible with someone recently and they would repeatedly go on about being washed in Jesus' blood and his suffering and dying to wipe the world of sin, etc, and it was just like she was quoting phrases that meant nothing. Any time I'd question her on anything she'd bring up the "I'm washed in Jesus' blood" stuff and the only way homosexuals can get to Heaven btw is if they stop their sinning and bathe in the blood too. It's like people don't have to really think about what they believe or what's moral or right, when questioned they just have to say "I'm washed in Jesus' blood" end of argument. And I don't know how anyone can torture, abuse and humiliate people and lock prisoners up with no rights, no lawyers, no trials and then say that they're doing it in God's name and that they'll be rewarded in Heaven for it. I think God's going to be more sympathetic to David Hicks than He will be to George W. Bush.
Sorry I did mean to write Anglicans, I was talking to someone about Protestants as I was typing.
The story you mentioned sounds really interesting! Firstly, time travel! Any story scores in my world if it has time travel ;D But it really sounds like a great read. There are a couple of books I reread recently that I like, they're both about religion and genetics and one is about a geneticist who finds relics from different churches and impregnates women in the hopes of having one of the children turn out to be a clone of Jesus and the other story is about a geneticist who tries to find the 'miracle strain' as he believed Jesus was a normal human, not the son of God, and that he had a 'miracle' gene that enabled him to heal others. Both were really interesting stories, I want to read them again now :)
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Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 04:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 05:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 04:46 am (UTC)\0/
Very well put, luv - you have a definite way with words, and you've totally expressed what I've thought for years.
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Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 05:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 05:57 am (UTC)I find it ironic that it's James Cameron, one of the most arrogant, hubris-filled assholes of all time (sorry if I'm stepping on toes, but that's how he strikes me) who seems to be getting the job of sticking it to the Christians. God's probably laughing himself silly as he prepares the next Deluge and sharpens his lightning bolts. By picking Cameron, he has begun The Great Smiting by humiliating the lot of us. The problem is, of course, that so many believers will dismiss Cameron for the very traits I've mentioned, and the fundies will just get louder, meaner and more dangerous in their insecurity.
I have to admit that I still want my TV and my car (though I'd trade mine in a heartbeat for a fuel-efficient model quiet enough to preserve my hearing), but I don't want us to pound other people unless they threaten invasion in a way that cannot be disputed. If we'd taken the high moral ground right after 9/11, when the world was sympathizing with us, we would not be in the mess we're in now. Whether Christ was resurrected or not, he's spinning in agony somewhere as we crucify him all over again.
Time to go to bed and have nightmares, now.
Catherine
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Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 07:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2007 01:13 pm (UTC)