"Innocent until proven guilty" - Anybody remember that one?
Tuesday, May 29th, 2007 06:07 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
serai.
OK, let's just chill out, people. Those of you going around waving your arms about supposed censorship and journal deletions, how about you step back and take a look at what evidence there may be for such accusations?
Journals get deleted for a number of reasons, and as far as I know, censorship has never been one of them, at least here on LJ. For me to believe that LiveJournal has suddenly decided to start interfering with its members' freedom, I'll have to see quite a bit more than hyperbole and finger-pointing. Does anyone actually have any proof of this?
Statements by LiveJournal? Emails from them to the community owners? Replies to inquiries? Anything at all? If so, then trot them out. Otherwise, let's just stow these rumors where rumors usually belong, why don't we?
ETA: Okay, having seen a couple of things that've been pointed out, it looks like those journals were deleted for listing interests that could encourage illegal activity.
I gotta a couple of words to say about this which will no doubt piss some people off, but you know me. I can't keep my trap shut.
Basically, it boils down to this: If you expect me to cry over LJ's owned by people who are dumb enough to list an illegal activity quite boldly as an interest, you're barking up the wrong tree. Yeah, yeah, freedom of expression and all that happy hooha. But have none of these people noticed the rather, um, hysterical tenor that tends to accrue to any discussion or even mention of pedophilia, incest, etc., these days? Discretion is the better part of valor, as they say, and if you're going to list something like "incest" in your stats...well, what the hell kind of reaction do you expect?
YES, I KNOW a lot of people listed it in connection with RPG's and other such things, but the fact remains that it's there listed as an INTEREST. That's leaving your comm open to exactly the kind of moronic vampires that are pulling this off, and brother, if you're really living in the kind of Happy Fairyland that says you can say or do whatever you please, no matter how much it might piss off the ignorant, without consequences, then all I can say is - c'est la vie. Life hands out these kinds of smackdowns all the time, you know, and it behooves people to take a look around and think with their brains before they do something like that. I mean, I might decide that I'm terribly interested in cannibalism, but I'm not about to proclaim it to the bloody world, thank you.
As far as LJ's actions, well, depends on how you look at it. They're absolutely right when they say that kind of things opens them up to legal risk. That's the kind of litigational world we live in these days. Every asshat with a chip on his shoulder and an overdeveloped sense of his own superiority can drag you into court if he feels like it. He may not win, or even get a hearing, but just the implication that LiveJournal harbors or approves of things like incest could start a media shitstorm, so in business terms, they certainly have more than a leg to stand on.
Not that I think it's a good idea. Personally, I think it may backfire on them. Maybe. We tend to think of fandom as a huge part of life, but I don't know how much impact this is going to have on LJ as a whole, since I don't know what percentage of LJ is taken up with fandom. But something tells me that there won't be that much kicking going on, since most people tend to take the view of "That's got nothing to do with ME." I'm aware of the slippery-slope argument (though I'm usually suspicious of it) and I'm aware that it could attain here: i.e., if they start censoring over this, where else could it spread? And maybe it will do that. But then, there are other places on the internet.
But speaking for myself? I've always been rather bemused by how "free" people seem to think the internet is. They think they can just say anything they damn well please, and anybody who objects or contradicts them can go hang. Well and good, for the most part; it's a view I take myself. My home is my castle, as they say.
However, no matter how much we want to view our LJ's as our "homes", they're not. We don't own them - we rent the space from LJ, just like one rents an apartment. If you take care of the place, keep the yard clean and play nice with the neighbors, no problem. However, if you break the rent conditions in some way, or do something that may get the landlord in legal trouble, you may well find yourself out on the street. It's the same way on the internet. No matter how much we may think we have complete "freedom of speech" (and I'd like to cane every nitwit who thinks that idea pertains to private enterprises like LJ - for fuck's sake, haven't they ever READ the Bill of Rights?), WE DON'T. We have the freedoms we're allowed by the communities we're part of, whether the U.S., the Brotherhood of Lions, the Girl Scouts, or the Commonwealth of Freedonia. You may want the freedom to burn down some great public building, and you may cry a great deal when you're hauled off to jail for doing it, but that doesn't mean you'll get that freedom. Groups are like that: they have to have rules or else they won't function. Members play by the rules or they're out, for the same reasons. Way of the world, sorry.
And when it comes to those very few Sins Of Humungous Importance That Will Destroy The World, it doesn't take commission to get you in trouble. Just the appearance will land you in a world of hurt. (Which is why LJ is doing what it's doing.) If you're going to put the terms "incest" or "child love" or any such thing up as any kind of identifying mark on your website, you're just going to have to deal with the consequences. Which, in this particular era, can be considerable. Certainly one can just sit in the corner with one's playmates and very quietly have one's community. But you can't expect that you'll be left alone forever. I mean, if we get flamed just for writing about consensual sex among adults, what are the chances of fics about kids fucking not getting you a world of trouble? Seriously?
BE THAT SAID, I hope you all don't think I give any credence or respect to a group of sexually frustrated prigs running around making trouble for others. Pathetic is hardly the word for them. Ridiculous is better. However, this IS America, and if there's anything more American than a bunch of yahoos running around telling others what to think, I haven't heard about it. Like it or not, that's what gets noticed in this country: idiots yelling until they get red in the face. I've never held with giving people like that any attention, but I don't run this country. (CLEARLY. If I did...but don't get me started on THAT.)
OK, let's just chill out, people. Those of you going around waving your arms about supposed censorship and journal deletions, how about you step back and take a look at what evidence there may be for such accusations?
Journals get deleted for a number of reasons, and as far as I know, censorship has never been one of them, at least here on LJ. For me to believe that LiveJournal has suddenly decided to start interfering with its members' freedom, I'll have to see quite a bit more than hyperbole and finger-pointing. Does anyone actually have any proof of this?
Statements by LiveJournal? Emails from them to the community owners? Replies to inquiries? Anything at all? If so, then trot them out. Otherwise, let's just stow these rumors where rumors usually belong, why don't we?
ETA: Okay, having seen a couple of things that've been pointed out, it looks like those journals were deleted for listing interests that could encourage illegal activity.
I gotta a couple of words to say about this which will no doubt piss some people off, but you know me. I can't keep my trap shut.
Basically, it boils down to this: If you expect me to cry over LJ's owned by people who are dumb enough to list an illegal activity quite boldly as an interest, you're barking up the wrong tree. Yeah, yeah, freedom of expression and all that happy hooha. But have none of these people noticed the rather, um, hysterical tenor that tends to accrue to any discussion or even mention of pedophilia, incest, etc., these days? Discretion is the better part of valor, as they say, and if you're going to list something like "incest" in your stats...well, what the hell kind of reaction do you expect?
YES, I KNOW a lot of people listed it in connection with RPG's and other such things, but the fact remains that it's there listed as an INTEREST. That's leaving your comm open to exactly the kind of moronic vampires that are pulling this off, and brother, if you're really living in the kind of Happy Fairyland that says you can say or do whatever you please, no matter how much it might piss off the ignorant, without consequences, then all I can say is - c'est la vie. Life hands out these kinds of smackdowns all the time, you know, and it behooves people to take a look around and think with their brains before they do something like that. I mean, I might decide that I'm terribly interested in cannibalism, but I'm not about to proclaim it to the bloody world, thank you.
As far as LJ's actions, well, depends on how you look at it. They're absolutely right when they say that kind of things opens them up to legal risk. That's the kind of litigational world we live in these days. Every asshat with a chip on his shoulder and an overdeveloped sense of his own superiority can drag you into court if he feels like it. He may not win, or even get a hearing, but just the implication that LiveJournal harbors or approves of things like incest could start a media shitstorm, so in business terms, they certainly have more than a leg to stand on.
Not that I think it's a good idea. Personally, I think it may backfire on them. Maybe. We tend to think of fandom as a huge part of life, but I don't know how much impact this is going to have on LJ as a whole, since I don't know what percentage of LJ is taken up with fandom. But something tells me that there won't be that much kicking going on, since most people tend to take the view of "That's got nothing to do with ME." I'm aware of the slippery-slope argument (though I'm usually suspicious of it) and I'm aware that it could attain here: i.e., if they start censoring over this, where else could it spread? And maybe it will do that. But then, there are other places on the internet.
But speaking for myself? I've always been rather bemused by how "free" people seem to think the internet is. They think they can just say anything they damn well please, and anybody who objects or contradicts them can go hang. Well and good, for the most part; it's a view I take myself. My home is my castle, as they say.
However, no matter how much we want to view our LJ's as our "homes", they're not. We don't own them - we rent the space from LJ, just like one rents an apartment. If you take care of the place, keep the yard clean and play nice with the neighbors, no problem. However, if you break the rent conditions in some way, or do something that may get the landlord in legal trouble, you may well find yourself out on the street. It's the same way on the internet. No matter how much we may think we have complete "freedom of speech" (and I'd like to cane every nitwit who thinks that idea pertains to private enterprises like LJ - for fuck's sake, haven't they ever READ the Bill of Rights?), WE DON'T. We have the freedoms we're allowed by the communities we're part of, whether the U.S., the Brotherhood of Lions, the Girl Scouts, or the Commonwealth of Freedonia. You may want the freedom to burn down some great public building, and you may cry a great deal when you're hauled off to jail for doing it, but that doesn't mean you'll get that freedom. Groups are like that: they have to have rules or else they won't function. Members play by the rules or they're out, for the same reasons. Way of the world, sorry.
And when it comes to those very few Sins Of Humungous Importance That Will Destroy The World, it doesn't take commission to get you in trouble. Just the appearance will land you in a world of hurt. (Which is why LJ is doing what it's doing.) If you're going to put the terms "incest" or "child love" or any such thing up as any kind of identifying mark on your website, you're just going to have to deal with the consequences. Which, in this particular era, can be considerable. Certainly one can just sit in the corner with one's playmates and very quietly have one's community. But you can't expect that you'll be left alone forever. I mean, if we get flamed just for writing about consensual sex among adults, what are the chances of fics about kids fucking not getting you a world of trouble? Seriously?
BE THAT SAID, I hope you all don't think I give any credence or respect to a group of sexually frustrated prigs running around making trouble for others. Pathetic is hardly the word for them. Ridiculous is better. However, this IS America, and if there's anything more American than a bunch of yahoos running around telling others what to think, I haven't heard about it. Like it or not, that's what gets noticed in this country: idiots yelling until they get red in the face. I've never held with giving people like that any attention, but I don't run this country. (CLEARLY. If I did...but don't get me started on THAT.)
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no subject
Date: Sunday, June 3rd, 2007 06:53 am (UTC)And one of the main posts I saw people link to was this one:
http://lolaraincoat.livejournal.com/253978.html
This person listed a group of comms that had been banned and claimed some of them were "genuine pedophiles". I saw that some of the comms had been unbanned and had a look at one - disgusting_lust and it didn't seem to me to be about paedophilia so I asked
no subject
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2007 07:48 am (UTC)I just can't understand how anyone could be dumb enough to list things that are considered not only criminal but completely reprehensible in their interests list, and then get all crazed when they draw unwarranted attention. HELLO!